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Posted by: HumbledBareBoy
« on: March 31, 2024, 02:13:46 pm »

Back then, before my friend was ready to try his first MMSA submission...

Quote from: HumbledBareBoy on June 29, 2022, 11:44:32 pm
On another site I use, I met a fellow author who write some pretty damn awesome stories that have greatly excited me, turned me on, and given me considerable enjoyment! Moreover, this man has also become a regular and highly supportive reading of my MMSA stories, as well, so I have come to appreciate and care for him a good amount!  ;D As luck would have it, a portion of his stories would also be on-topic for MMSA, so a few times, I have attempted to warmly and gently encourage him to try posting one of his there, too... <-snip-> ...sadly, even though his writing is genuinely enjoyable and pretty d--ned good, but he...does not share in my esteem of his work... :( ...and indeed, his primary stated reason for not giving story submission a try is that he is convinced his writings is of insufficient quality to be "worthy" -- i.e., "not good enough," as preposterous as I find it

Fast-forward, 1st story goes live...

Quote from: HumbledBareBoy on January 26, 2023, 09:44:28 pm
my hopes and efforts of persuasion did eventually pay off, the results of which you can see in my recent "story recommendation" over here in a different thread. <-snip-> ...sure enough, there it was, and even with a shiny golden "site recommendation" shield, too!

Present-Day Status: With his 15th story, going live on 2024/03/29 a couple days ago, there is now an official yellow shield ("highly recommended author!") beside his pen-name! In other words, precisely the exact outcome I expected for him, and well-deserved for such a talented and enjoyable author! As they say, "All's well that ends well!"
Posted by: HumbledBareBoy
« on: January 26, 2023, 09:44:28 pm »

Quote from: Kat on June 30, 2022, 12:14:48 am
I hope you can persuade your friend to submit some work.

Well, "hope springs eternal," as they say! And as of this past week, my hopes and efforts of persuasion did eventually pay off, the results of which you can see in my recent "story recommendation" over here in a different thread. For which I actually have to thank the set of individuals who responded above because I think relaying the content of those statements was the final "piece of the puzzle" necessary to help my friend over that hurdle; so effective, in fact, that merely a short while later, I got an email sharing that he'd already saved a version of his latest story into RTF, created an author account, and submitted the whole thing

Later that next morning, as I was browsing the "new stories" page...sure enough, there it was, and even with a shiny golden "site recommendation" shield, too! How wonderful for a new author's very first MMSA submission, and even better still, it's also already been voted up to red and gold stars... ...and words just cannot express how happy I am feeling, on his behalf!
Posted by: HumbledBareBoy
« on: July 05, 2022, 01:51:39 am »

Quote from: Zyngaru on June 30, 2022, 01:59:30 pm
My suggestion is to mention to your friend to stop reading the submission guideline's page and go and read "New Author" stories.  It is in reading the stories in the archive that he will discover that MMSA accepts and posts all kinds of stories.
....
It's the story that matters.  Yes, it helps to be readable.  Obviously, this man's stories are readable since you think so highly of them, so he shouldn't have anything to fear.
Z, thank you for chiming in, and I appreciate it! :D As a matter of fact, I do believe you yourself are also acquainted with this specific writer, or at the very least know of him...
Posted by: Zyngaru
« on: June 30, 2022, 01:59:30 pm »

Quote from: HumbledBareBoy on June 29, 2022, 11:44:32 pm

Unfortunately and sadly, even though his writing is genuinely enjoyable and pretty d--ned good, but he...does not share in my esteem of his work... :( ...and indeed, his primary stated reason for not giving story submission a try is that he is convinced his writings is of insufficient quality to be "worthy" -- i.e., "not good enough," as preposterous as I find that sentiment in his mind! He did go as far as to look over the part of the site about authorship and story submission, and guess what?

Stuff like what's mentioned in this very thread was, primarily, what discourages him. He even specifically mentioned the "anymore vs. any more" part as being especially influential in scaring him off!  :'( Because I'm not an irritating a-hole, I've elected not to pester him or push the idea too hard, but I have not yet given up on the path of "gentle encouragement and baby-steps," either...

Alas!  ::)

HBB.

My suggestion is to mention to your friend to stop reading the submission guideline's page and go and read "New Author" stories.  It is in reading the stories in the archive that he will discover that MMSA accepts and posts all kinds of stories.  Grammar doesn't seem to be a prerequisite for acceptance.  If it had been, then my early stories would have never been accepted.  I suspect even some of my later stories turns a few English Majors stomachs.

It's the story that matters.  Yes, it helps to be readable.  Obviously, this man's stories are readable since you think so highly of them, so he shouldn't have anything to fear.

As for the Anymore/Any more controversy, it was a big Ta-do at first and now it is hardly mentioned.  I write how I write.  I don't give Anymore vs Any more much consideration when I write.  I try to get it correct in its proper usage, but if I don't, I'm sure readers will figure what I mean.

Even on this site the corrector function is trying to make me change any more to anymore.   But who really cares?  That is not what people who read our stories are looking for.  They want hot, very hot, fun, silly, crazy, exciting, humiliating, embarrassing and especially naked stories.  They don't care if every "I" is dotted, and every "T" is crossed.  As long as it is good enough to follow the plot, that is all the reader cares about.  Just my opinion.  Not meaning to be absolute.  I have had feedback correcting my grammar!!! 







Posted by: Adric
« on: June 30, 2022, 11:16:40 am »

Quote from: HumbledBareBoy on June 29, 2022, 11:44:32 pm
He even specifically mentioned the "anymore vs. any more" part as being especially influential in scaring him off!

It seems a shame that some people consider this to be such a serious issue, when it is easy to get the word you want in your published story.
For anyone who doesn't know, putting "any-more" in your RTF file that you submit will result in the word "anymore" in your published story.
I have done this with every one of my stories.  They all show "anymore" when it refers to a period of time, and "any more" when it refers to a quantity.

When I read a story in British English, I hardly notice the many ways that words are spelled (spelt?) and used differently, but "any more" now leaps out at me as a result of the issue that has been made of it at MMSA over the years.  A tempest in a teapot, mountain from a molehill, etc. etc.
Posted by: David M. Katz
« on: June 30, 2022, 07:07:01 am »

Quote from: ivor on June 30, 2022, 02:43:54 am
all contributions are welcome and that no check is made on grammar or spelling.

ALL contributions are welcome.  We only review for acceptable content.

HOWEVER, if I see something egregious as far as spelling/grammar and it is an established author, I will usually send a note advising that they might want to consider sending in a correction.  (They usually always do.)

If I see it with an author I know really well and have a relationship with then I will make an edit and advise them of such. It is rare that I will edit a story and I have to know the author really well.

Mostly, we just don't have time to correct spelling grammar for all of the stories.  (On a busy day, I may review 6 - 8 stories.) Also, I feel it isn't ethical to alter another author's work without permission.
Posted by: ivor
« on: June 30, 2022, 02:43:54 am »

Based on some of the stories that have appeared in the past, I don't believe there is a quality standard on MMSA. Indeed I think I've read at some point that all contributions are welcome and that no check is made on grammar or spelling.

As Kat has said, that was an example of Flag's anti American bias.
Posted by: Kat
« on: June 30, 2022, 12:14:48 am »

That's unfortunate, HBB. MMSA doesn't really have high standards. It's just that Flag gets on a high horse periodically, alienates a few more writers to the point they either pull their stories or just stop writing, and imposes some arbitrary new rule.
 >:( I hope you can persuade your friend to submit some work.

Kat
Posted by: HumbledBareBoy
« on: June 29, 2022, 11:44:32 pm »

Quote from: stevieweeks on August 22, 2018, 09:45:02 pm
The raven quote is referring to the last ungodly tantrum that roiled MMSA over the use of 'anymore' versus 'any more';  which occurred some years ago (for the edification of those who were not present at the time).
Quote from: Jack on August 25, 2018, 06:31:59 am
It's said that English is the most widely studied foreign language in our world.  I believe part of the reason for that is that English IS a living, growing language which is easily capable of adaption.  Sometimes that does lead to things that one dislikes (I personally detest 'alot' for some reason). 

I can understand Flagellant's desire to have MMSA be a site that presents proper stories.  After all, he's put a lot of effort into making the site where they're presented look proper.  In the end, my problem is not with that so much, nor even the specific battles he picks, but with the way he pursues them.  In the end, I have to agree with Plagosus' last two paragraphs.  This is something we all do for fun, and something people read for fun, so we should try to avoid conflict and just let it be fun.
Quote from: Zyngaru on August 28, 2018, 01:27:29 pm
Whether it is right or wrong. Whether it is proper grammar or not.  It really doesn't matter once society has come to use a word a certain way, that is now part of the grammar usage.  Any one/Anyone who wants to keep their language stagnant, I suggest Latin.  Although it wouldn't surprise me if even Latin is changing now that more and more people are using it.

In browsing through this forum's older threads, the current one caught my eye, for two primary reasons:
  • I recall having once seen the "anymore vs. any more" section on MMSA, and I just remembered feeling surprised and regarding it as rather peculiar at the time.  However, being of a pretty strong formal education, including two sequential grad degrees in two very dissimilar fields, I personally find it second nature to use and prioritize correct grammar, etc.  Still, THAT was nonetheless a new one on me... :o
  • More depressingly, however...well, let me start here: On another site I use, I met a fellow author who write some pretty damn awesome stories that have greatly excited me, turned me on, and given me considerable enjoyment! Moreover, this man has also become a regular and highly supportive reading of my MMSA stories, as well, so I have come to appreciate and care for him a good amount!  ;D As luck would have it, a portion of his stories would also be on-topic for MMSA, so a few times, I have attempted to warmly and gently encourage him to try posting one of his there, too...

Unfortunately and sadly, even though his writing is genuinely enjoyable and pretty d--ned good, but he...does not share in my esteem of his work... :( ...and indeed, his primary stated reason for not giving story submission a try is that he is convinced his writings is of insufficient quality to be "worthy" -- i.e., "not good enough," as preposterous as I find that sentiment in his mind! He did go as far as to look over the part of the site about authorship and story submission, and guess what?

Stuff like what's mentioned in this very thread was, primarily, what discourages him. He even specifically mentioned the "anymore vs. any more" part as being especially influential in scaring him off!  :'( Because I'm not an irritating a-hole, I've elected not to pester him or push the idea too hard, but I have not yet given up on the path of "gentle encouragement and baby-steps," either...

Alas!  ::)
Posted by: stevieweeks
« on: August 28, 2018, 07:34:55 pm »

https://www.buzzfeed.com/briangalindo/for-anyone-who-loves-lego-here-are-15-fun-facts-about-its?utm_term=.fx213YVErO#.bb2lkQaPZb
Posted by: Zyngaru
« on: August 28, 2018, 01:27:29 pm »

Quote from: Kat on August 28, 2018, 10:01:15 am
Quote from: Flagellant
You may not want analogy, Kat, but Bottom's example IS the one that nails it. MECCANO. A method of play with lots of pieces that connect together.

If the floor is covered with Meccano pieces, there is NO way anyone would say "pick up those Meccanos". Unless they were extremely ignorant. And then they are perpetuating and legitimising an ignorant usage to their children which creates your ad populum usage. It may be widespread, but it's still technically wrong. Just because some random dictionary gives in and lists a popular usage doesn't make it correct. It just means they have caved in to the aggressive, proud-of-my-ignorance populism that's now rampant and has been demonstrated in this thread.

"Meccanos" isn't a valid word. Meccano is a name for the SYSTEM of play, just like "Lego", and the SYSTEM cannot be plural. The PIECES of that system can be, but they are described as bricks, pieces, parts (so plural)... As Bottom points out, "Go" is a game with many small parts. You do not say "pick up all your Gos". You'd be thought an idiot if you said that.  :shock: Or if you said "pick up all your chesses", or "pick up all your Monopolies". So your argument that it's valid to make a plural out of a noun like Lego, clearly describing a composite entity, to describe its subcomponents is just nonsense, since there is extensive prior practice of NOT doing so with games and systems of play, especially that have a tradename.

This discussion has degenerated into pointless shouting. I'm extremely disappointed. I don't know whether it is the cancer of social media taking root, that people have to be obnoxious and extreme and lose all rationality to tribal loyalty, but it's not pretty. I have no truck with social media for EXACTLY this reason. Sheepie is right that there's nothing more to be said because people are obviously incapable of listening, or are deliberately blocking their ears to anything but confirmation bias of their position, however specious.

So I'm locking the thread. You can probably expect to see a story added to this challenge by me, with a child spanked for deliberately persisting in speaking of his "Legos", for the simple reason of knowing it annoys his parents.  :evil:

After all Flag's posturing about truth, the above is his last word on the ridiculous LEGO/Lego/Legos thread. He supports Bottom's bullshit analogies and completely ignores my repeated points. I did not shout. I merely insisted on my points. I invited him to show me where my points are wrong. He refused to engage.

I'm sick and tired of people like Flag and Bottom employing dishonest, unfair rhetoric until they wear down their interlocutors, who finally abandon the field in disgust. I joined the argument, not because I give a damn about how anyone makes the plural of LEGO pieces, but as an experiment: what would happen if someone refused to back down but instead insisted on logic and facts?

Now we see. Flag is just as intellectually dishonest as Bottom. Worse, he uses his prerogative as owner of the MMSA forum to take the last word. One doesn't establish truth by fiat. I have to say -- no, really, I do! -- I'm disgusted.


Kat

I did agree with Kat's post.

I haven't followed the argument at MMSA Forums.  I try not to get involved in arguments (Debates) anymore.  Any More.

I used to debate (Argue) any side of any argument until I won.  Even when I knew I was wrong, I would argue until I won, and then tell the other person, everything I just said was wrong.  I had to win.  Now I just stay clear of arguments/debates.

I did see that it was said that Lego is a system.  System can be made plural.  Systems.

Then I ask, what about individual Lego systems.  They have the space lego.  The home lego and I am sure many others, I really don't follow it.  I know my sister has a big bin full of lego pieces at her daycare.  So if I am talking about multiple Lego systems, wouldn't that be Legos?

All I know is that I know of no one that calls the lego pieces blocks.  Everyone I know calls them legos.  Around here, Lego is the name of the company and legos is the name of the pieces.  Right or wrong, that is how it is used here.  When the kids at my sister's daycare are done playing, she tells them to pick up the legos and put them away.  If she told her 3,4,5 year old's, to go pick up the bricks and put them away, the kids would look at her in befuddlement.

I saw the example of Monopoly and Monopolies.  I would say great example but it isn't.  Every plural has it's own rules.

We use deer and deer, but we don't use wolf and wolf.   Why not?  They are both animals.  So why aren't their plurals the same?  Because each one has developed it's own rules over time.  Originally Lego and Lego may have been correct.  But over time and usage, in my part of the world it is lego and legos.  Face it, what are you going to build with one lego?  Sometimes a brand name becomes synonymous with everything that is like it.  Lego is one of those.  Lego the brand has become synonymous with lego the piece.  More than one piece is pieces, thus more than one lego is legos.  Whether it is right or wrong. Whether it is proper grammar or not.  It really doesn't matter once society has come to use a word a certain way, that is now part of the grammar usage.

Any one/Anyone who wants to keep their language stagnant, I suggest Latin.  Although it wouldn't surprise me if even Latin is changing now that more and more people are using it.

Just my 2 cents worth.

That was fun.  ;D
Posted by: Jack
« on: August 28, 2018, 01:15:41 pm »

Quote from: Kat on August 28, 2018, 12:43:26 pm
I also care that Flag made this about more than LEGO. He chose this hill to die on. Then when the advancing troops refused to retreat, he fled from the hill but still claimed a victory.

Over and again, I've said that I try hard to teach my kids to have a proper conversation.  This is many of the points I stress as being capable of destroying a relationship.

Iconoclast used to drive me crazy, because he'd post some article that proved one of his pet points.  I'd read it, point out the flaws in it, and he'd never try to defend it. 

If you want to have an intellectually honest conversation, you HAVE to start with the idea that the other person might have a view that's equally valid, or even superior, to yours.  If you come into a discussion willing to do whatever it takes to win the argument, including sticking your fingers in your ears and going 'la la la', then you're not having a discussion.  In Flagellant's case, he has the key, so he can hold things hostage and force anyone who wants to stay to conform to his views.  That doesn't make him right, however.
Posted by: Kat
« on: August 28, 2018, 12:43:26 pm »

Quote from: squarecutter on August 28, 2018, 12:21:21 pm
'Well you go your way and I'll go mine
Now and forever 'till the end of time
I'll find somebody new and baby
We'll say we're through and you won't matter anymore…

At a risk of treading where Angels fear to. seems the above lyrics frome Buddy Holly are most pertinent. What should matter is that stories are readable and on topic

Fair enough, but it was Flag who insisted on the correctness of his position and went so far as to conflate a moot grammatical issue with the much weightier issue of truth in media and politics. I might consider him obsessed to the point of fanaticism, but I could have respected his integrity if he hadn't made it abundantly clear that he is not concerned with establishing the "truth" on this silly LEGO issue. He is in love with his own opinion and thinks he can impose that opinion on other people by fiat and call it truth.

I want to be very clear about this, as it's easy for observers to look at the situation and think, "Just let it go." Few people care whether someone writes "Legos" or not. I don't care. I am, however, prepared to continue the debate until my interlocutor forces me to concede for valid reasons or concedes to me. I'm even prepared to agree to disagree. I'm not prepared to lose an argument by default.

I also care that Flag made this about more than LEGO. He chose this hill to die on. Then when the advancing troops refused to retreat, he fled from the hill but still claimed a victory.

Kat


Posted by: squarecutter
« on: August 28, 2018, 12:21:21 pm »

'Well you go your way and I'll go mine
Now and forever 'till the end of time
I'll find somebody new and baby
We'll say we're through and you won't matter anymore…

At a risk of treading where Angels fear to. seems the above lyrics frome Buddy Holly are most pertinent. What should matter is that stories are readable and on topic
Posted by: Kat
« on: August 28, 2018, 10:01:15 am »

Quote from: Flagellant
You may not want analogy, Kat, but Bottom's example IS the one that nails it. MECCANO. A method of play with lots of pieces that connect together.

If the floor is covered with Meccano pieces, there is NO way anyone would say "pick up those Meccanos". Unless they were extremely ignorant. And then they are perpetuating and legitimising an ignorant usage to their children which creates your ad populum usage. It may be widespread, but it's still technically wrong. Just because some random dictionary gives in and lists a popular usage doesn't make it correct. It just means they have caved in to the aggressive, proud-of-my-ignorance populism that's now rampant and has been demonstrated in this thread.

"Meccanos" isn't a valid word. Meccano is a name for the SYSTEM of play, just like "Lego", and the SYSTEM cannot be plural. The PIECES of that system can be, but they are described as bricks, pieces, parts (so plural)... As Bottom points out, "Go" is a game with many small parts. You do not say "pick up all your Gos". You'd be thought an idiot if you said that.  :shock: Or if you said "pick up all your chesses", or "pick up all your Monopolies". So your argument that it's valid to make a plural out of a noun like Lego, clearly describing a composite entity, to describe its subcomponents is just nonsense, since there is extensive prior practice of NOT doing so with games and systems of play, especially that have a tradename.

This discussion has degenerated into pointless shouting. I'm extremely disappointed. I don't know whether it is the cancer of social media taking root, that people have to be obnoxious and extreme and lose all rationality to tribal loyalty, but it's not pretty. I have no truck with social media for EXACTLY this reason. Sheepie is right that there's nothing more to be said because people are obviously incapable of listening, or are deliberately blocking their ears to anything but confirmation bias of their position, however specious.

So I'm locking the thread. You can probably expect to see a story added to this challenge by me, with a child spanked for deliberately persisting in speaking of his "Legos", for the simple reason of knowing it annoys his parents.  :evil:

After all Flag's posturing about truth, the above is his last word on the ridiculous LEGO/Lego/Legos thread. He supports Bottom's bullshit analogies and completely ignores my repeated points. I did not shout. I merely insisted on my points. I invited him to show me where my points are wrong. He refused to engage.

I'm sick and tired of people like Flag and Bottom employing dishonest, unfair rhetoric until they wear down their interlocutors, who finally abandon the field in disgust. I joined the argument, not because I give a damn about how anyone makes the plural of LEGO pieces, but as an experiment: what would happen if someone refused to back down but instead insisted on logic and facts?

Now we see. Flag is just as intellectually dishonest as Bottom. Worse, he uses his prerogative as owner of the MMSA forum to take the last word. One doesn't establish truth by fiat. I have to say -- no, really, I do! -- I'm disgusted.


Kat