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Posted by: Adric
« on: July 13, 2018, 01:26:34 pm »

Apparently the boys did not have to dive, but were carried underwater by the divers on some sort of rescue stretcher, mildly sedated so that they wouldn't panic.

This seems like a very smart way to proceed.  If the rescue can be accomplished without requiring any action or skill on the part of the boys then by all means do it.  I hope they all had a nice relaxing xanax trip on the way out.
Posted by: db105
« on: July 13, 2018, 12:17:46 pm »

This article gives more detail about how the rescue was done:
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/12/world/asia/thailand-cave-rescue-seals.html

Apparently the boys did not have to dive, but were carried underwater by the divers on some sort of rescue stretcher, mildly sedated so that they wouldn't panic. I think it's a very intelligent approach, because the dive was difficult even for expert cave divers, with one narrow passage where they had to pass the air tanks separately because it was too narrow for diver and air tanks at the same time.  It would be unrealistic to expect weakened boys who did not know how to swim, to say nothing of diving, to do it. There was a lot of danger of diving equipment getting caught on the walls or of one of the boys panicking.

There were also some close calls. So there was a lot of luck and the rescuers did a great job.
Posted by: 18Smacked
« on: July 12, 2018, 06:01:20 pm »

Though I have not done it in years, I am a certified diver and even have teaching creds for it. I recall my first class days in learning the skill, and we heard how dangerous (and frankly, in my view) cave diving was to do. I remember thinking way back then (I was in my late teens) that there was no way in the world I would ever do that sort of stuff.

Several years later, I had an opportunity to spend some time with some highly trained professional divers; they were members of the U.S. Naval Underwater Demolition Team who at the time were based at the Naval Yard that was then in Boston; it is now long gone from there.  (This is also an inanely dangerous way to make a living. No way in the world that I would consider doing this stuff, either. But that is just an aside here. I mention it only out of genuine respect for what these men did, and who they were.) We ended up talking about the various experiences they had diving. They told me about some caves that they had explored, and how some of their buddies were with them, and never came back. And, these were very seasoned divers who did this stuff day in and day out!

It is beyond impressive that they were able to bring back everyone from their predicament. I have utter awe for the feat that they pulled off for these boys and their coach. It was truly incredible! Bravo does not begin to cover it. It was absolutely amazing.
Posted by: Zyngaru
« on: July 10, 2018, 05:59:27 pm »

“Our behavior is different. How often have you seen a headline like this?--TWO DIE ATTEMPTING RESCUE OF DROWNING CHILD. If a man gets lost in the mountains, hundreds will search and often two or three searchers are killed. But the next time somebody gets lost just as many volunteers turn out. Poor arithmetic, but very human. It runs through all our folklore, all human religions, all our literature--a racial conviction that when one human needs rescue, others should not count the price.”

― Robert A. Heinlein, Starship Troopers

Not only that.  When a hurricane is coming.  Residents are told to evacuate.  Then they are told that no one will come to their aid once the hurricane hits.  Then the hurricane hits in full force and residents start calling for help and rescuers go out in a hurricane to try and help them.

People know that someone will come to their rescue even when they make bad decisions.
Posted by: db105
« on: July 10, 2018, 05:39:11 pm »

“Our behavior is different. How often have you seen a headline like this?--TWO DIE ATTEMPTING RESCUE OF DROWNING CHILD. If a man gets lost in the mountains, hundreds will search and often two or three searchers are killed. But the next time somebody gets lost just as many volunteers turn out. Poor arithmetic, but very human. It runs through all our folklore, all human religions, all our literature--a racial conviction that when one human needs rescue, others should not count the price.”

― Robert A. Heinlein, Starship Troopers
Posted by: Zyngaru
« on: July 10, 2018, 01:38:04 pm »

Hallelujah!
Posted by: Emlyn Morgan
« on: July 10, 2018, 10:11:32 am »

Rejoice!
Posted by: db105
« on: July 10, 2018, 07:04:22 am »

 :)
Posted by: David M. Katz
« on: July 10, 2018, 07:02:46 am »

THEY ARE ALL OUT SAFELY!!
Posted by: Zyngaru
« on: July 09, 2018, 09:03:31 pm »

This article contains the names and pics of all the boys (and the coach) involved.  Interesting.

https://abcnews.go.com/International/faces-thai-boys-cave-odyssey-captured-attention-world/story?id=56444294

Thanks David.  Nice to be able to put faces to the boys.
Posted by: David M. Katz
« on: July 09, 2018, 07:49:26 pm »

This article contains the names and pics of all the boys (and the coach) involved.  Interesting.

https://abcnews.go.com/International/faces-thai-boys-cave-odyssey-captured-attention-world/story?id=56444294
Posted by: db105
« on: July 09, 2018, 06:47:31 pm »

Regarding the assistant coach who went with the boys into the cave, it's true that the sign said not to go in during the rainy season from July to October, and they went in on June 23rd. However, I think it's very reckless to take kids under your care into a cave famous for flooding, so close to the rainy season, without at least checking the weather forecast carefully.

After becoming trapped because of the flooded passages, however, his behavior was exemplary. He kept the group together, led the boys in the right direction towards the deeper but more elevated caves, declined to eat any of what little food they had so that the boys could have more, taught them meditation so that they would not panic or waste their energy while they waited for ten days hoping for a rescue, they drank the water seeping down the walls, which was much better than the water on the cave floor... When they were found, the group was in a relatively good physical and mental state.

Also, according to the reports, these are all people from a rather poor region, and this coach had lost his parents and brother when he was 10, because of an illness that ravaged his village. He was very devoted to the boys, and thought of a system where they were encouraged to study and get good grades or they could not play. He obviously made a bad decision, but I'm inclined to think that it was because of ignorance and lack of experience. He seems like a good person who was doing his best.
Posted by: db105
« on: July 09, 2018, 06:16:51 pm »

Being American I tend to want things to start immediately and end fast.  But hearing the obstacles they are working through, I understand they can only go so fast and stay safe.

Well, rescues deep underground are often difficult, slow and dramatic. The Chilean mining accident, for example, also mobilized the whole world. In 2010, 33 miners disappeared underground after their mine collapsed. 17 days later there was little hope of finding them alive, when a deep drilling probe broke into the chambers where they were trapped, 700 meters underground, and they taped a message on it saying that "we are alive in the refuge, the 33 of us". Apparently the miners had been hearing the noise from the drilling machine for days, and you can imagine their happiness when it reached them. The rescuers were able to send them food, but taking them out was very difficult and it was not clear whether it would be technically possible. Finally they were able to extract them alive, after 70 days trapped.

In France in 1999, seven expert cave explorers were stuck in a cave system for 10 days after heavy storms caused unforeseen flooding. Unable to reach them through kilometers of flooded tunnels, the rescuers drilled shafts into the rock and finally reached an underground river which they followed and got to a cave where they found the trapped men. They had rationed their food, water and gas and still had supplies for two days when they were found.

In Venezuela in 1991 two experienced open water divers, but not trained in cave diving, were exploring an underwater cave system, looking for an underground lake. They got lost and lost contact with each other. One of them lost all sense of direction, found an underground air pocket and became trapped there, alone, sitting on a mud island. He spent the following days praying, hoping for rescue but thinking of suicide. Meanwhile, his partner had gone out and raised the alarm. Several diver friends were quickly called but they were unable to get deep into the cave, where the muddy water allowed no visibility. The following day two experienced American cave divers who had agreed to help arrived. They thought they were looking for a body, as in all their time as cave rescuers they had never rescued anyone alive. So when they saw how bad the conditions were in the cave they were sorely tempted to go back and give up, since it was not worth risking their lives so much to recover the corpse of someone they didn't even know. However, they persevered, and one of them saw a light, belonging to the trapped diver. When the two rescuers reached him, he thought he had died and they were angels, but he was alive and he was able to come out of the cave with them.

In 2014 a cave explorer was injured on the head by a rockfall in the deepest cave in Germany, and a large and very complex rescue operation was launched. It took 700 rescuers and 11 days to take him out, through several very difficult vertical passages, where the rescuers had to use their own bodies as counterweight to raise the stretcher...
Posted by: Adric
« on: July 09, 2018, 03:33:09 pm »

Stevie, the only problem is, as far as I could find with a quick search, they went into the cave BEFORE the rainy season, which starts in July.

If there were blame to be distributed (and I don't think that is a good use of anyone's time at this point) I think it should be for taking those boys deeply into such an extensive cave at any time of the year without having parents know of those plans.  Spelunking is a dangerous sport.
Posted by: Jack
« on: July 09, 2018, 02:19:13 pm »

the sign warning people not to venture into the cave during rainy season and all...

Stevie, the only problem is, as far as I could find with a quick search, they went into the cave BEFORE the rainy season, which starts in July.

I honestly believe that our culture is way to concerned with placing blame.