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Posted by: David M. Katz
« on: October 05, 2021, 07:06:44 pm »

I could only watch Old Yeller once. Too emotional. Tommy played that role superbly!
Posted by: Jack
« on: October 04, 2021, 05:07:53 pm »

Quote from: Zyngaru on October 02, 2021, 07:07:15 pm
That said.  If Tommy had decided to stay in acting or at least in the industry someplace, he probably could have, just not for Disney.  He did make some movies after Disney.

No, my understanding is that he finished the Monkey's Uncle after his contract wasn't renewed, but he didn't do any new work for Disney.

He DID continue to work in the industry for a while, but the real trouble came after an arrest at a party for marijuana and drug possession.  There was no proof of the marijuana (just that he was at a party where there was a lot of it) and the drugs were actually from a legal prescription, but the arrest was enough to get him fired from The Sons of Katy Elder (not The Searchers, as I think I said before), and a couple of other movies.  Losing that high profile part, along with being dismissed by Disney, was pretty much the end, and he did do some work after that, but from an interview he gave that I read, I think personal problems drove him to quit and move on, which was probably the best thing for him at that point, in the long run.
Posted by: Zyngaru
« on: October 02, 2021, 07:07:15 pm »

Quote from: afinch on October 02, 2021, 06:09:55 pm

Problem is, Z, Tommy didn't have a girlfriend from whose mother he needed a blessing.  He had a boy friend at a time when homosexuality was classified as both a crime and a mental disorder.  Not quite the same situation at your parents, or my ex in-laws parents who were married with children at 16.

Oh Okay.  When I read your post I understood he had a girlfriend whose mother threatened to go public.  (Statutory r ape charges possible) Not a boy friend.  In that case I wouldn't have worried much about the mother, because she would have outted her own son also.  Now I say that, knowing I would be scared to death.  Just the hint that you were homo or queer, which  are the words used back then, was a killer for you.  Every boy in school worried about that to some degree.  Even the very straight ones.  If a boy accused you are touching him down there, even if you were the star football player and as straight as a Cherokee arrow, your life was ruined.  So all of us were afraid of that.  This is back when you were naked in the showers at school.  So if you even looked at another boys parts too long, it hurt you.

But as for the mother.  Unless she hated her son for being gay, I can't see her doing anything that would jeopardize him.  I guess she could have thought being friends with Tommy would draw unwanted attention to the two of them and her son would be hurt by association.  But I really can't see her taking it public if she loved her son, because it would have ruined both of them.

Now as for Hollywood, there has always been a large number of gay men and women in Hollywood and still are.  Just recently it has come out semi publicly that there are a large number of **** in Hollywood also.  It's the well known secret.   That said.  If Tommy had decided to stay in acting or at least in the industry someplace, he probably could have, just not for Disney.  He did make some movies after Disney.
Posted by: afinch
« on: October 02, 2021, 06:09:55 pm »

Quote from: Zyngaru on October 01, 2021, 09:07:46 am


I'm not so sure the dating thing would have resulted in a jail term.  My dad was dating my mom when he was 19 and she was 13.  They got married when she was 16 and he was 22.  So they dated for 3 years.  Which also means like Tommy, my dad was 21 and dating my future mom when she was 15.   Things were different back  then.  The difference between my dad and Tommy, was my dad had my grandmother's blessing and evidently Tommy didn't have his girlfriend's mom's blessing.  Since Tommy was a movie star and had money, I would dare say it was something other than just age that caused the girlfriend's mom to be against the relationship.  Drugs?  Maybe?  Being gay?  Maybe?  But probably not age, even if that is what she was saying at the time.

Problem is, Z, Tommy didn't have a girlfriend from whose mother he needed a blessing.  He had a boy friend at a time when homosexuality was classified as both a crime and a mental disorder.  Not quite the same situation at your parents, or my ex in-laws parents who were married with children at 16.
Posted by: Jack
« on: October 02, 2021, 09:26:37 am »

The real problem with Tommy dating a 15-year old boy wasn't that the boy was 15 - that's one of today's problems.  Back then, 'dirty old men' were considered a problem, but not otherwise.  Here in Texas, it was an affirmative defense to the age of consent if the girl under age could be considered promiscuous.  The real trouble (and the reason the Mom went to Disney instead of the police) is that the boy was breaking the law as well, though he probably wouldn't have gone to jail over it.  Seriously, even as recently as the 90s, when I was in my mid-to late 20s, I had friends who tried to help me hook up with teenage boys.
Posted by: Zyngaru
« on: October 01, 2021, 09:07:46 am »

Tommy was 10 years older than me, and ten years is a lot when you are a boy.  I liked his acting, but then I liked all of the Disney stars acting.  Kevin was closer to my age and also he was very mischievous, so I was more drawn to him.  I loved, Swiss Family Robinson.  It had both of them in it. 

Being gay in the 50's like all of us know in this forum was taboo.  It wasn't talked about, except in whispers.  It wasn't even called "gay."  Much harsher words were used.  Getting that tag ruined a guy for life, if he survived it.  It wouldn't have mattered where Tommy worked when his being gay broke, he would have been fired and cast out from society.  Disney does have a reputation for trying to look squeaky clean, not as much today as in the past, but just smoking could have gotten him fired.  I mean Annette Funicello wasn't allowed to wear a bikini.  She had to wear one piece swimsuits for the beach movies.  For Walt, the image was everything.  But then he and Disney Inc, were the roll model for boys and girls everywhere.

I'm not so sure the dating thing would have resulted in a jail term.  My dad was dating my mom when he was 19 and she was 13.  They got married when she was 16 and he was 22.  So they dated for 3 years.  Which also means like Tommy, my dad was 21 and dating my future mom when she was 15.   Things were different back  then.  The difference between my dad and Tommy, was my dad had my grandmother's blessing and evidently Tommy didn't have his girlfriend's mom's blessing.  Since Tommy was a movie star and had money, I would dare say it was something other than just age that caused the girlfriend's mom to be against the relationship.  Drugs?  Maybe?  Being gay?  Maybe?  But probably not age, even if that is what she was saying at the time.

I mean 22 year old Jerry Lee Lewis was married to his 13 year old first cousin.  Now when it went public it was controversial and caused the cancellation of lots of concerts and an entire tour in Britain, but no jail time over it.
Posted by: afinch
« on: September 30, 2021, 08:43:58 pm »

Tommy's story is a little more complicated than "He was fired because he was gay."  He was actually fired because he was 21 and dating a 15 year old whose mother found out and threatened to go public.  In those days (and in these ones), that would have probably resulted in a long jail term for Tommy as well.

He allegedly was already having drug issues prior to that--again, not uncommon in those days.  And none of which matters to the joy he brought all of us in his films, and will continue to bring to others as his legacy.

RIP Tommy Kirk.
Posted by: Jack
« on: September 30, 2021, 04:05:53 pm »

Quote from: Zyngaru on September 30, 2021, 11:27:38 am
I didn't know Kirk was gay.  It never meant anything to me if a boy was gay or not

When I learned Tommy Kirk was gay, it didn't really matter to me, except to add a certain something to the old fantasies I'd had of him when I was a child.  Even then, the fantasies I'd had of him weren't sexual - often they were more of him being my big brother, simply intimate and caring.

But it would have meant something.  If I'd known when I was 9 years old that Tommy Kirk was gay, it would have let me know that I wasn't alone.  It would have let me know that a person could be more than just gay.  It would have let me know that being gay didn't make you a loser or a horrible person.

In his case, being gay meant something else.  It meant Disney cancelled him when they found out about it.  It meant he was under huge pressure to keep things hidden and to cover up, which is why he turned to marijuana and drinking.  Those are the things that cost him his career (John Wayne refused to work with him in The Searchers after he was arrested for marijuana possession). 

I would have loved the character Tommy Kirk portrayed whether he was gay or straight, but it's important to me to know that he was gay, because it shows what some people have had to go through, and that it is possible to go through it and still build a good life.
Posted by: Leti
« on: September 30, 2021, 11:36:20 am »

R.I.P. Tommy

Hugs

Leti
Posted by: db105
« on: September 30, 2021, 11:30:46 am »

RIP. My favorite movie of his is Swiss Family Robinson.
Posted by: Zyngaru
« on: September 30, 2021, 11:27:38 am »

Thanks Jack for the update.

I always loved Tommy Kirk movies.  He wasn't my favorite male Disney Star.  Kevin "Moochie" Corcoran was my favorite.  Of course, along with my brothers and half the guys in America, my favorite female Disney Star was Annette Funicello.

I didn't know Kirk was gay.  It never meant anything to me if a boy was gay or not.  I like them for who they are, not what they are.  I know many people say they can tell when a boy is gay, I never could.  I can tell if he is effeminate or not, but that doesn't prove anything.  I have known a lot of effeminate boys in my lifetime that were not gay.  They just had a swish about them is all.

Posted by: Jack
« on: September 30, 2021, 10:28:20 am »

Tommy Kirk passed away on Tuesday.

I doubt there are many here who don't know Tommy Kirk, but he was a former Disney star who happened to be gay.  Disney fired him when it was reported that he had a boyfriend.  He acted a while longer, but had drug problems.  He was able to leave acting and build a good life for himself, from everything I've learned.  He did some acting and interviews in his later years.

I also doubt that there is anyone who knows me well who doesn't know of my love for him and his movies, and the huge crush I had on him when I was a boy (watching re-releases of his movies, and not realizing he was so much older than I was). 

Unlike so many former child stars, Tommy Kirk did live a long life, and he seemed to be happy with it.  That's better than many people get, so I want to be happy for him, but I can't help think about what we could have had if the world had been a fairer place.